"Storia Militare" e HMS URGE: si accoglie l'ipotesi Misson-Mattesini

[JPMISSON]

As a complement to earlier Posts on the difficulty of attending the Gun on a British U Class boat :

 

In   :   "NO ROOM FOR MISTAKES"  ,  Geirr H. Haarr  ,   SEAFORTH Publ.  2015 .

 

"The U-class boats were initially not meant to have a gun and lacked a hatch for the gun crew.

  Hence , when attending the gun , the crew had to use the main conning tower hatch which turned out

  to be very inconvenient especially if it became necessary to crash-dive" .

 

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For HMS URGE , on 29 April 1942 at Marsa el Hilal , this inconveniency seems to have proved fatal.

Edited May 11, 2016 by JPMISSON

[Francesco Mattesini]

Ne avevamo parlato, ed ero anch'io convinto delle difficolta per il personale al cannone di rientrare all'interno dei sommergibile tipo U, dovendo salire in torretta e poi discendere nella camera di manovra, con notevole intralcio anche per coloro che vi si trovavano ed erani impegnati nell'immersione rapida del sommergibile.

 

Franco

[Platon Alexiades]

HMS Urge at Ras Hilal?

Argonauta at Ras Hilal?

Picci Fassio at Ras Hilal?

HMS Quentin at Tabarka?

S-35 at Tabarka?

Eight submarines at Tabarka?

 

With a little imagination anything is possible. The problem is not to let get carried away by it as some people will end up mixing imagination with reality and really believe it.

[Francesco Mattesini]

Non ne siamo sicuri, ma é possibile che durante l'immersione rapida, sotto attacco dei Cr. 42, il portello della torretta dell'URGE non sia stato chiuso correttamente.

 

Franco

[JPMISSON]

Keep on cornering yourselves with denials : the more and the longer you do that , the harder it will be for you to adjust to reality and to publicly admit your misjudgement .

As far as the position of the wrecks is concerned , the REALITY is not in the Archives but on the Seafloor .

Tons of archives will never beat a sonar picture  !

Edited July 12, 2016 by JPMISSON

[Platon Alexiades]

If I made an error, I will be first to admit it.

 

Denials? Who is in denial?

 

When I told you the wreck was U-205, you were the one to deny it and claim that the British divers visited HMS Urge instead of U-205. I send you the pages of their report (which readers can see in my earlier post on this forum), you still denied it and elaborated fantastic stories how they got it wrong.

 

Today wrecks of the Second World War are covered with marine growth making them difficult to identify even in photographs (let alone sonar photographs and poor ones at that!).

 

Tons of archives will never beat a sonar picture: I agree that a picture is worth a thousand words but a poor sonar picture is worth nothing.

I admit that archives can some time be wrong but your judgment in "identifying" the wrecks is infallible?

 

Claiming that the wrecks can be identified by your sonar photographs alone is not enough. Any sensible person will tell you that. I fear you are letting your imagination take over.

 

I would have no objection if you kept your elaborate theories to yourself but you seem determined to spread your ideas as gospel truths. I am interested enough in Naval History that I cannot accept the diffusion of these wild stories without a challenge. Unfortunately, casual readers may believe them and even informed persons may assume that you have identified the wrecks by other means than the sonar photographs when this is not the case. Before claiming to have found so and so, please show us some real proofs or limit yourself in stating that these are only theories.

 

I do not doubt that you may have found some wrecks with your sonar but before proceeding in “identifying” them, please use more precise methods than your imagination. This may make good Fiction but poor History. You are perhaps seeking some notoriety but people will cease to take you seriously.

 

I find I waste too much time refuting your theories when I have more serious work to do.

[Francesco De Domenico]

Time, please, gentlemen.

[JPMISSON]

Sonar images (and comments about them) are no  "THEORIES" . 

Their content is heavier than words .

You may produce as many copies of what is read in Archives : it will never be enough to challenge 

what is seen on the seafloor .

Why are some so disturbed about HMS URGE , PICCI FASSIO , HMS QUENTIN , Schnellboot S 35

being sonar-confirmed where they really are  ?

Just because it does not match the coordinates found in Archives ?   

Believe me : copying Archives again and again does not make History , new evidence can and will  !

Nobody will stop me from revealing what the sonar reads .

It is an obligation , particularly when it comes to submarines-mass graves .

Nobody has asked anyone to waste time refuting others' , sonar documents (and "imagination" ....).

That I know , this is a Forum , not a Court .

There are no Judges , only Moderators  !

Each one of us is only accountable to what he publishes in terms of words and pictures .

I remain accountable to the Readers of this Forum (as a whole) , to no one in particular  !

[Platon Alexiades]

Dear Francesco,

 

I know your position is difficult and for me the discussion is closed.

Until adequate proofs for identifying the wrecks can be provided it is no use engaging a debate.

I am sorry if the sonar photographs are not convincing to me but I feel a duty to challenge these "proofs".

If the majority of readers from this forum find my doubts unacceptable then I will withdraw them and will make them elsewhere.

There is no jealousy from my part, only common sense.

Unfortunately, some people feel that the lack of response means an acceptance of their theories so keeping silent is very difficult.

 

Best wishes,

 

Platon

[Francesco De Domenico]

Dear Platon,

 

 

I called "time" just because  I feel that everybody involved in this very interesting debate has by now had ample occasion to state his point of view in full, and that - barring new developments  - the subject has now been analyzed in depth to everybody' s satisfaction. This remains true even if unfortunately the different opinions could not find any common ground.

I think I express the feeling of all readers of this forum when I say that I am very grateful to all of you for this passionate and knowledge-full thread , believe me.

 

Francesco

[Francesco Mattesini]

Caro Platon,

 

A questo punto il buon senso porta a ritenere che questa discussione sia degenerata a tal punto che non mi sento più di stare a continuare sull'argomento se vi sono o non vi sono i relitti e se il Sonar di J.P., per me incomprensibile, é un'apparecchiatura infallibile.

 

Pertanto finché non si avranno le prove che i relitti esistono e che sono quelli individuati da Misson, ogni ulteriore discussione é inutile perché riporta sempre agli stessi elementi che abbiamo discusso e ridiscusso, restando ognuno di noi sulle proprie posizioni.

 

J.P, non deve offendersi di questa mia franchezza.

 

Cordialmenete

 

Franco

[Platon Alexiades]

Caro Franco,

 

I have no argument with you on this. Until something new comes up there is no reason for this discussion to repeat the same things. We can always discuss other subjects.

 

Cordialmente,

 

Platon

[Francesco Mattesini]

Sono della tua opinione, discutiamo d'altro.

 

Franco

[JPMISSON]

In risposta al  Post #21

 

Ecco i documenti rinvenuti dai Sigg.  GATTI  e  MASSIMELLO  negli Archivi della Regia Aeronautica e che hanno permesso

loro di pubblicare un articolo di otto pagine nella rivista  STORIA MILITARE , Aprile 2016.

 

L'ultima correlazione fra l'immagine sonar del relitto del URGE con uno schizzo di un sommergibile U Class , mostra che

i danni causati dagli attacchi successivi dei 6 aerei CR42 sono stati molto importanti.

 

Un sommergibile di colore scuro (blu grigio) di circa 60 m di lunghezza , seduto su un fondo sabbioso a -48 m , sarà stato

ben visibile da i piloti che , secondo la relazione Operativa , erano a quota 500 - 1.000 m.

 

Tanto più che quando soffia il Ghibli (vento da Sud) il mare in Libia è una tavola.

 

L'avvicinamento a vista per foto e video è previsto l'estate del 2018.

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by JPMISSON

[Francesco Mattesini]

Cari Platon e Jean Pierre,

 

Sono mortificato. Ero occupato a seguire altri lavori, come avrete ben visto, e in tutto questo tempo non mi sono accorto della discussione in corso in questo post.

 

Dovro leggermi tutto, e poi darvi una risposta.

 

Scusatemi ancora,

 

cordialmente

 

Franco