Affondamento del cacciatorpediniere britannico HMS QUENTIN

[Francesco De Domenico]

L'ingegner Guido Gay racconta come ha ritrovato la ROMA, dal libro di Ugo Gerini "Corazzata ROMA. Destinazione finale", Luglio Editore, 2015.

 

Un incoraggiamento per il nostro Jean-Pierre...

[Francesco Mattesini]

Debbo confessare di non aver letto il libro dell'ng. GAY, quindi non conosco i dettagli che hanno portato a ritrovare parti minute della corazzata ROMA, mentre per il resto della nave, molto piò consistente, anche se spezzata in più parti, non sappiamo nulla, perché si troverebbe in un prodondo canalone?

 

L'Ingener GAY parla dei rapporti di missione trovati all'Ufficio Storico della Marina Militare. Vi é però il fatto che quei rapporti, i più importanti,e  in particlare quello dell'incrociatore ATTILIO REGOLO, da lui citato, si trovano tutti fotografati nel Secondo Tomo del mio libro "LA MARINA E L'8 SETTEMBRE " (USMM 2002);  per cui, conoscendo il libro (almeno si spera) era facile andare a rintracciarli in Archivio.

 

Franceco Mattesini

[Francesco Mattesini]

Nel testo del mio libro "La Marina e l'8 Settembre" (Tomo Primo) è riportato:

 

Dopo l’affondamento della ROMA l’ammiraglio Romeo Oliva, Comandante della 7^a Divisione Navale sull’incrociatore EUGENIO DI SAVOIA, trasmise a Supermarina :

 

« Nave ROMA gravemente colpita et incendiata da bombe aereo ore 15.52 lat. 41°10’ long. 08°40’ est successivamente affondata (alt) Assumo Comando (alt) Prego istruirmi – 162009”

 

NOTA

 

La lat. 41°10’N, long. 08°40’E corrispondeva ad una posizione situata a 14 miglia a sud-ovest di Capo Testa, e risulta alquanto errata. Anche nel rapporto dell’incrociatore Attilio Regolo è riportato che l’attacco aereo si era  svolto a miglia 14,5 per 242° da Capo Testa, mentre invece, secondo quanto allora segnalato dal Comando della 9^ Divisione Navale, sulla Vittorio Veneto, l’affondamento della Roma si sarebbe verificato molto più a nord–ovest, in lat. 41°18’N, long. 08°E, corrispondente ad almeno 13 miglia a nord da Punta Caprara, che si trova all’estremità settentrionale dell’Isola Asinara.

 

Franco

[Francesco De Domenico]

Guarda che l'ingegner Gay non ha trovato solo "parti sminuzzate" della Roma, ma l'intero parte poppiera dello scafo con assi e eliche, la torre dell'artiglieria principale poppiera e il torrione con tutta la sovrastruttura centrale e le file dei cannoni da 90 mm aa.

[Francesco Mattesini]

Mi sembra una novità che non conoscevo. Si possono vedere le fotografie ? Perché altrimenti resto scettico!

[Francesco De Domenico]

L'ingegner Guido Gay è una persona seria.

Dal libro di Ugo Gerini "Corazzata ROMA. Destinazione Finale", Luglio Editore, 2015.

[Francesco De Domenico]

segue

[Francesco Mattesini]

Ottimo. Molto bene, sono convinto. Complimenti a Gay.

 

Franco

[JPMISSON]

L'ingegner Guido Gay racconta come ha ritrovato la ROMA, dal libro di Ugo Gerini "Corazzata ROMA. Destinazione finale", Luglio Editore, 2015.

 

Un incoraggiamento per il nostro Jean-Pierre...

 

Il mio caso è molto diverso : butto in mare la testa del sonar , poi mi guardo le registrazioni e le interpreto alla meglio , paragonando le immagini con le foto d'epoca .

 

Il lavoro lo ha fatto il sonar . Neanche un secondo in Archivi .

Edited May 25, 2016 by JPMISSON

[Francesco Mattesini]

Grazie Francesco.

 

Leggero quel libro.

 

Franco

[JPMISSON]

 

In AIDMEN :

http://www.aidmen.it/topic/192-affondamento-del-cacciatorpediniere-britannico-hms-quentin/page-4

Page 4

Post #49

Quote

Alle ore 06.36 il Quentin (capitano di corvetta Allen Herbert Percy Noble) fu attaccato da tre velivoli Ju. 88 del I./KG.54 (tenente colonnello pilota Helmut von Raven), e gli equipaggi tedeschi, come è riportato nel Bollettino dell’OBS n. 370 del 3 dicembre 1942, riferirono che una bomba da 500 chilogrammi aveva colpito il fianco di un cacciatorpediniere arrestandolo. L’azione degli Ju. 88 avvenne a bassa quota alle 06.40 (ora riportata nella relazione dell’O.B.S.) in lat. 37°27’N, long. 08°35’E, corrispondente a 36 miglia a nord di Tabarka, ed essendosi sviluppata nell’incerta luce che precedeva l’alba, resa ancora più fosca dal tempo cattivo, la bomba che colpì il fianco destro del Quentin, a circa 8 piedi dalla paratia della sala macchine, 

 

e più avanti  :

 

Attaccarono per primi i quattro Ju. 88 del II./KG.54 (maggiore Richard Taubert), i quali sganciarono sul Quentin che appariva fermo e con la poppa sott’acqua, e lo colpirono a centro nave sul lato sinistro con un'altra bomba da 500 chili,

 

Unquote

 

Comments : 

The sonar image shows the PORT side of the wreck , so the damage on the Starboard side of the hull cannot be seen.

(first paragraph above)

However , the damage on the Port side is clearly visible (lato sinistro) :  shiny spots along an otherwise even-coloured

hull side (this is in agreement with  the second paragraph above) .

 

The right hand side of the image (the Stern) appears to be drooping .

This meets the "Con la Poppa sott'acqua" , above .

The sonar image confirms : The structure is "BENT" , not  "SPLIT /BROKEN INTO TWO SECTIONS".

The wreck is still : one continuous structure.

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

HMS QUENTIN

 

About the foundering of HMS QUENTIN said to have been confirmed by a Board of Enquiry as having happened 50 m 048° Cap de Garde........

Should this be true , it would confirm the lack of any credibility in the official version of the fate of this vessel.

Neither the Commander nor any Crew of HMAS Quiberon could have said having seen HMS Quentin to sink , because when they abandoned HMS QUENTIN she was disabled but still afloat.
It appears that the four of five who were still onboard , after the departure of HMAS Quiberon , later got picked up by a German seaplane : HMS Quentin remained afloat for seemingly a full day because the position given by Hummelchen (10 nm , North of Tabarka) is probably for the next day : Dec.3 . His position is correct : he did not invent it and must have got the information from some good source .

The wreck of HMS Quentin lies exactly 10 nm from Tabarka  !

This would explain the long drift over almost 24 hours and would also explain the report of a later air attack by Italian planes(s) with claim of sinking a Destroyer. 

In : http://feldgrau.net/...hp?f=40&t=21874
Quote.
A report of this engagement follows, taken from a narrative written by Commander Hugh Browning RN. CO of Quiberon. 

Attack by Allied cruiser and destroyer force on Italian convoy bound for Tunisia,

December 1942.

HMAS Quiberon followed the cruiser into the attack. At 0055 ( 12.55 AM ) I sighted a destroyer of the Sirio Class emerging from a smoke screen on my port beam and turning to fire torpedoes; I left the line and closed at 26 knots.

Fire was opened at about 5,000 yards and the second salvo was observed to hit forward of the after superstructure. Successive salvoes also hit under the funnel and just abaft it.

Enemy salvoes fell just astern and on the starboard quarter. At 0059 ( 12.59 AM ) the enemy, badly damaged, turned to starboard and was hidden by the smoke screen.

At 0101 ( 1. 01 AM ) two "E" boats appeared out of the smoke, then about 2,500 yards away, and attacked with torpedoes. I turned hard astarboard and torpedoes were observed to pass down my port side , uncomfortably close.

2. I realised that unless I rejoined the line I might be taken for an enemy destroyer and subjected to the intensely accurate fire of HMS Aurora. I endeavoured to rejoin without fouling the range and switched on my Type 252. At 0107 ( 1. 07 AM ) I passed a Troopship badly afire and fired at her, probably unnecessarily, as she was obviously sinking. This ship was observed to sink. About 1000/1500 troops were in the water shouting for help. I judged them to be Italians.

I succeeded in rejoining astern of HMS Quentin at 0110 ( 1.10AM )

At 0112 ( 1. 12 AM ) sighted another Troopship on fire, but not badly; HMS Quentin and HMAS Quiberon finished her off, and she was observed to sink, Semi Armour Piercing shell were used and some went right through the ship without bursting.

At 0133 ( 1. 33 AM ) another destroyer was sighted lying on her side; fire was opened at 2,000 yards approximately and two hits were observed. It is not known whether this ship sank. HMS Sirius finished off yet another destroyer with one salvo which set her afire from end to end.

3. The total bag observed by HMAS Quiberon was three destroyers ( in fact only 2 sank, my notation ) and four Merchant Ships, of which two are known to have been Troopships. It is not known whether any "E" Boats were sunk or damaged, but I do know that HMAS Quiberon did not hit any.

4. At 0636 ( 6. 36 AM ) one torpedo bomber attacked from the port side of the line and torpedoed HMS Quentin.

HMAS Quiberon circled HMS Quentin once, then signalled for information as to whether the ship could steam. Reply was ship could not steam but would remain afloat for a little time.

5. As more enemy aircraft were heard and seen I decided to carry out Rear Admiral Commanding 12th. Cruiser Squadron's verbal instructions and endeavour to " Cut our losses." I proceeded alongside HMS Quentin and ordered her to " Abandon Ship."

I was alongside for about 8/10 minutes, it seemed longer, and was subjected to cannon fire and bombs. I decided that I could stay no longer, and went full astern as another pair of aircraft attacked.

The bombs fell where my forecastle had been and exploded under my bow.

6. I had hoped to make sure of sinking HMS Quentin, but finally decided that I must try and get my ship into harbour; especially as I had over 400 men in my ship at the time.

I was aided in this decision by the thought that the enemy aircraft, which had become bolder as they realised my guns were not High Angle, would undoubtedly sink HMS Quentin; this is what I believe to have happened, as aircraft were observed bombing her for at least 10 minutes after I had left. This was of great assistance to me as it halved the weight of attack on this ship. Had HMS Quentin been sunk, it is unlikely that HMS Quiberon woud have got away unscathed except for some minor damage.

7. There were seven determined attacks on HMAS Quiberon after she left HMS Quentin and I was pleased to see that our fire was very accurate and time and again the Dive Bombers were turned away at the last minute, and either jettisoned their bombs or made no other attempt.

The method of attack was the usual type, one bomber would endeavour to draw the fire when almost out of range, and the other would come in diving, hoping that the Oerlikons would be caught with empty pans. Luckily this ruse had been encountered before, and the gun's crews were not caught out by it. Two aircraft were seen to be hit but I regret none were observed to crash. In all, there were ten attacks made by two or three aircraft together.

8. HMAS Quiberon evaded most of the bombs by a quick turn at the last minute after bombs had been released and only a few fell close.

This was due to the magnificent work by my Engineering Officer who gave me 320 revolutions ( 33 knots ) in a ship already overdue for boiler cleaning and decoking, at about three minutes notice.

9. HMAS Quiberon arrived at Bone at 0915 ( 9. 15 AM ) and secured alongside HMS Sirius, who took care of the survivors.Eight Officers ( including the Commanding Officer ) and one hundred and seventy Ratings were taken off HMS Quentin.

10. It is a matter of deep regret that I was unable to remain alongside a few minutes more and bring off the four or five who were left, but I must point out that these Officers and Ratings had in all cases gone below to pack, in spite of my frenzied efforts to get them onboard my ship. ( I cannot imagine how anyone might be so foolish as to give up the chance of survival to go and gather a few personal possessions. )

11. As a result of the night action and the action against enemy aircraft, I wish to recommend the following Officers and Ratings for decorations. The names are not shown in order of merit, but the attached forms are numbered in order of merit.

Hugh Browning
Commander. Royal Navy.
This Commanding Officer of HMAS Quiberon died in England in February of 1997

http://www.royal-nav...tent/view/17/1/ 
Unquote.

HMS QUENTIN is nowhere near 50 m 048° Cap de Garde.....
She is in 37° 04' 44" N , 8° 52' 33" E
She is sitting upright on the seafloor and challenges any move to relocate her.

  

 
 

 

[Platon Alexiades]

Where does it say that HMS Quentin was sunk at Tabarka? Show me an official source. You cannot because the Hümmelchen book is in error [you mean to tell me an author has never made an error?]

If I was paid an euro for every mistake in Rohwer/Hümmelchen's first edition of Chronik Des Seekrieges I would be a rich man now!.

Why don't you explain to us how all your Italian submarines Dessié, Asteria, Avorio, Cobalto and Porfido drifted to Tabarka?

How the German MTB S-35 drifted to Tabarka?

How Picci Fassio drifted to Ras Hilal?

So all you wrecks seem to find their way to your sonar spots? Amazing!

Everybody else is wrong but you?

All these claims are without foundation and it is obvious for anyone who examines them closely.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Platon Alexiades

[Francesco Mattesini]

Concordo con la versione di Platon. Non vi é nessuna prova che le navi elencate da J.P. siano finite vicino a Tabarca, così come il PICCI FASSIO si trovi nelle acque prossime a Ras el Hilal.

 

Riguardo ai tempi dell'all'affondamento del HMS QUENTIN:

 

 

Dalla pubblicazione dell’Ammiragliato: "H. M. SHIPS DAMAGED OR SUNK BY ENEMY ACTION 3rd. SEPT. 1939 to 2nd. SEPT. 1945".

Anno 1952, fotografato dall'originale

 

QUENTIN, - while operating in the Mediterranean, was attacked by enemy torpedo bombers and was hit by two torpedoes.

1st Torpedo struck the starboard side abreast the engine room about 8 ft, forward of the after bulkhead,, Immediate flooding of the after boiler room, engine and gearing rooms, shaft tubes and gland spaces took place. Damage sustained put the pumping system out of action. The forward torpedo tubes were blown overboard and the starboard oerlikon platform collapsed 2n d Torpedo struck the port side amidships about half an hour .after the ship was abandons d0 The ship appeared to break in two and there was a violent ejqalosion.

 

QUENTIN sank by the stern about 15 seconds after the 2nd hit.

 

 

Naturalmente si trattava di bombe da 500 chili e non di siluri a colpire il QUENTIN.

 

Franco

Edited June 27, 2016 by Francesco Mattesini

[JPMISSON]

Non trovo su questo thread il Post di F. Mattesini in data 3 Luglio , nel quale si legge :

 

Sull’attacco dei tre aerosiluranti il generale Carlo Unia, autore di Storia degli Aerosiluranti Italiani, ha riportato in modo molto schematico: “Il Ten. Cimicchi e i due gregari superstiti riescono a lanciare i loro siluri e ritengono di aver colpito un incr. e un piroscafo. 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ecco la posizione dei Relitti nella zona perlustrata con il sonar (2014-2015)

 

Non posso dire altro che   "c'è , effettivamente , un piroscafo in zona". 

Il G 78 è il HMS QUENTIN.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by JPMISSON