MARSA EL HILAL, i Relitti.

[Platon Alexiades]

If you read my previous postings, I am not doubting an accident but an accident at Ras Hilal. This is not that the captain of Argonauta would never have carried out a trial dive in Ras Hilal, but that he would have done so by entering the bay unannounced and submerged. If he feared that his submarine might have an accident while diving, it would have been a good idea to try a dive at Ras Hilal but he would have made sure that this was known so that help could be handy if anything went wrong. Otherwise why not try to dive in the middle of the Mediterranean? Perhaps you can give me reasons for entering the bay stealthily unless her captain committed gross negligence. No comments on my documents or are you still clinging on the idea that HMS Decoy sank Argonauta at Ras Hilal? I rest my case.

[JPMISSON]

-There was nothing and nobody at Ras el Hilal in 1940 , to which or to whom Argonauta could/should have announced  anything. 

-Marsa el Hilal is an ideal place for a submarine to rest on a sandy bottom , protected from prevailing wind and  current.

 Under the thread U-205 , URGE , ARGONAUTA , on this Forum , you should find my Post about at least one other British  submarine having rested exactly there for half a day...

 "Otherwise why not try to dive in the middle of the Mediterranean" ???

 I hope you will concede that resting on the seabed in 20 - 25 fathoms without any need to keep an eye on depth and  trim is  more attractive than diving in the middle of the Med  !!!   :  just look at the depth contour lines for Ras el Hilal  !

 

I have no particular comment about the report of the British Destroyers not mentioning a passage at Ras el Hilal . 

However there are so many other Internet sites , documents and books mentioning Argonauta as having been sunk by British naval forces near Ras el Hilal that I simply wonder why ? 

A loophole or a black hole somewhere in the Archives ?  Rather strange , anyway !

 

Just for the record : some of the damage incurred by Argonauta was at "Periscope level" (Optics or Sealing system ?)

A leak at periscope level (and for whatever reason) can be of catastrophic proportions .

"IMPROBABLE"  ??? 

Edited May 30, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

For information only .

An additional evidence that one of the submarine wrecks at Marsa el Hilal is HMS URGE 

as I have claimed in April 2015 :

 

The oval hole  (function not yet fully determined)  appearing on the vintage picture can 

be seen on the sonar image.

 

The last attachment is the Depth Profile , showing the protruding Conning Tower.

 

Contrary to Wikipedia's position (HMS URGE having hit a mine off Malta...) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Urge

....HMS URGE is lying right in the middle of the roadstead MARSA el HILAL , Libya.

 

It is about time so-called "historians" stop referring to inexisting archives , stop giving "opinions" on

the "most likely cause" of the loss of  HMS URGE and start considering Sonar Images as valid evidence !

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Wikipedia :

Quote :

Wreck[edit]

On 29 April 2015, it was reported that Jean-Pierre Misson claimed to have found the wreck of Urge on sonar recordings taken off the coast of Libya at Marsa el Hilal.^[4] This is not supported by physical evidence other than sonar such as photographs or material from a wreck. If the images show an object, and if that object is a wreck, it may well be that of a U boat (U205) known to have sunk in the area. The claim that the images are of HMS Urge's wreck received some publicity but is not supported by analysis by the UK Government which is recorded below.

In April, 2016 the Naval Historical Branch of the Ministry of Defence endorsed the following paragraph by a naval historian relating to the possible causes of HMS Urge's loss:

It is not known with certainty how HMS Urge was lost, having sailed from Malta to Alexandria on 27th April, 1942. At the time of loss, the official view was that it was most likely that HMS Urge struck one of a number of mines which were laid by Axis forces at that time in the approaches to Malta. This remains the most likely cause of loss on the available evidence, although until the wreck of the submarine is found and positively identified other causes cannot be ruled out. Those other causes include the possibility of attack from Axis submarines or a depth charge attack by surface ships, although no Axis claim was made at the time. Although unlikely, there is a possibility that an accident could have caused the loss. Finally, there has recently been media interest in a claim of discovery of HMS Urge's wreck off the Libyan coast, based on a sonar image and a report of an attack by an Italian aircraft on a submarine. The evidence around this claim has been evaluated by the relevant UK Government historical authorities at the Naval Historical Branch of the Ministry of Defence, and is not considered sufficiently strong or credible to disrupt the official view that the most likely cause of loss was to a mine near Malta. It appears impossible that HMS Urge could have reached the site of the object discovered off Libya at the time of the purported attack at her speed in the sailing time available, and unlikely that she would have taken the risk of departing from her ordered course even if it had been possible. The inconclusive nature of the reports of the purported attack, and the lack of evidential weight of the sonar images of the object pending any photographic images or external visual evidence, are additional factors which have been taken into account. At this time therefore, the official view is that no claim of discovery of HMS Urge has been substantiated, and it remains most likely that the wreck of HMS Urge lies near Malta as a result of loss to a mine. For this reason, and as a sign of respect for the crew of HMS Urge, and their families, any suggestion that she was lost in another location or that her wreck has been discovered should be not be presented as fact. This is especially so in the absence of official recognition or acknowledgement by family representatives.

UNQUOTE

 

 

[JPMISSON]

A complement :

The Correlation between a vintage picture of HMS URGE , a Drawing and the Sonar Image.

The rectangular aperture on the side of the hull (preceding Post) has been taken as a reference.

"Imagination"  ??? 

Certainly not !

The sonar tells the truth : HMS URGE is resting on the seafloor at Marsa el Hilal.

 

[JPMISSON]

ADDENDUM

In terms of "respect for the crew of HMS URGE" (and ARGONAUTA 2°) , I have shown more of that than all the so-called "historians" put together...

It is a Universal rule to report the finding of a Tomb and this is what those two submarines really are  !

On this matter , I take advice or orders from no one .

Edited July 7, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

For information only .

 

On all British submarines , U Class :

 

An Isolated , Rectangular Aperture on the side of the Casing , between the Gun Platform 

and the Conning Tower (the exact need for this aperture is being investigated)

 

This aperture can be readily seen on the sonar image , 2012 , of a submarine resting on the 

seafloor at Marsa el Hilal   (P.A.  32° 54'  N       22°  11'  E) 

Google Earth picture  : "Area sonar-searched , 2012"

 

The sonar snapshot is therefore of the wreck of HMS URGE , lost on June 29 , 1942

 

See AIDMEN Forum :

http://www.aidmen.it/topic/91-sommergibili-u-205-urge-argonauta-2%C2%B0/

and :

http://www.aidmen.it/topic/213-marsa-el-hilal-i-relitti/

and :

http://www.aidmen.it/topic/438-storia-militare-e-hms-urge-si-accoglie-lipotesi-misson-mattesini/

see Storia Militare , April 2016 . 

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

ARGONAUTA 

 

An update on the sonar image analysis of this wreck :

 

The position of the Hatch of the Conning Tower is indicated on the annotated sonar image , attached.

Although the Plan drawing shows that only the bottom hatch has a cross-shaped wheel , the sonar image

shows a similar cross-shaped wheel on the deck hatch.

No submarine design , other than the Italian "Classe 600" puts a C.T. Hatch in this position.

 

Therefore , being an Italian "Classe 600" submarine , this wreck is of ARGONAUTA , lost June 28 or 29 , 1940.

The wreck lies in Marsa el Hilal , Libya , in P.A.   32°  54'  N      22°  11'  E  

...in the area sonar-searched in 2012 , as indicated on the attached Google Earth picture.

 

Just as for HMS URGE , resting in the same perimeter , this submarine is the tomb of its entire crew.

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

SONAR  EVIDENCE  versus  PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE

 

The time has come for Sonar Imagery technique to get the credibility it deserves .

 

Nobody , not even the so-called "historians" , have the right to reject evidence that comes out 

from the bottom of the sea with this technique , on the grounds that it is not worth consideration.

On this Forum I have read , somewhere :  "Lasciamo perdere le immagini sonar e torniamo ai fatti" 

Well , today : for HMS URGE , ARGONAUTA , HMS QUENTIN , PICCI FASSIO and SCHNELLBOOT S 35 , 

...the only "fatti"... are the Sonar Images of these wrecks and what they reveal .

 

These surface vessels and these submarines have been identified from the images of what is left of

them and seen of them ,  by a Sonar , down on the seafloor . 

 

Without diving them and without need for any additional evidence , the sonar images have proved

sufficient for a full identification of these five units .

There is no ambiguity there , the evidence is unquestionable  ! 

 

The matter will be demonstrated progressively , as we dive the wrecks , but this will be done no to

prove the identity of the wrecks but to prove the validity of the above statement .

 

To pretend that photographic evidence in the undersea world is the only way to identify a wreck is

absolute nonsense because in many cases the sonar technique allows us to see things that a photography

does not reveal and that the human eyes will not detect , either...

This is particularly true for metal wrecks that have been in the sea for tens of years : the encrustations 

and the marine growth have so covered the structure that many of the things that could have helped

identify the wreck are totally concealed to one's eye and to the camera , however good its optics ...

 

This is where the Sonar technique is so superior : the "return" (part of the sonar wave bouncing back

to the sonar Transducer) comes from the metal structure : the sonar sees the metal structure only  ,

not the encrustations and the marine growth that now cover the wreck , entirely  !

 

It is agreed that to identify a wreck from its sonar image , three things are needed  :

-a vintage Picture of the vessel

-a constructional Drawing

-some hint as to the presence of the vessel in the area , at the time of disappearance

 

For HMS URGE , ARGONAUTA , HMS QUENTIN , S 35 , PICCI FASSO  this is precisely what we had prior to

working at deciphering the sonar recording .

It is obvious that the software supplied by the sonar manufacturer gives an advantage to the person at

the computer (making use of all the resources of the machine) , over the person only given a snapshot.

 

Some examples of the details seen by sonar imagery , that have allowed the identification of a wreck ,

without ever diving it , yet  :

 

HMS URGE (Sonar recording Libya , 2012)

Aside from the general correlation submitted in April 2015 , the presence and the position of a distinct

aperture on the Port side of the casing (between Gun Platform and Conning Tower) denotes a U Class unit.

This wreck , therefore , is re-confirmed British sub  HMS URGE . See AIDMEN Relitti Marsa el Hilal .

 

ARGONAUTA (Sonar recording Libya , 2012)

The sonar image reveals the Hatch of the Conning Tower (still shut) positioned at the rear of the C.T. deck.

This corresponds to the Plan drawing we have of the  "Classe 600 - Serie Argonauta".

This wreck , therefore is re-confirmed Italian sub ARGONAUTA 2° . See AIDMEN Relitti Marsa el Hilal .

 

HMS QUENTIN (Sonar recording Tunisia , 2015)

The sonar image reveals one leg of the tripod mast and the penultimate rear gun "trained forward" .

This corresponds exactly to the vintage picture we have of this Destroyer .

The Port side of the hull shows some damage amidships and this matches the report about the vessel

being bombed or torpedoed from the air .

This wreck , therefore , is Destroyer HMS QUENTIN . See AIDMEN Affondamento HMS Quentin .

 

S 35 (Sonar recording Tunisia , 2015)

The sonar image has been compared with the vintage pictures and the constructional drawings of  this

Schnellboot : a very good matching has been obtained . 

This wreck , therefore , is  S 35 . See  http://www.s-boot.net/sboote-wracks.html

 

PICCI FASSIO (Sonar recording Libya , 2012)

The sonar image shows many of the features of this Tanker :  a Bridge at the fore end of the vessel ,

(as per vintage picture)  several circular hatches for the many separate tanks this ship carried , the

flexed Starboard side of her hull (torpedo attack) and above all the wreck lying on the seabed in two

distinct sections (as documented in the reports on her fate).

This wreck , therefore , is tanker PICCI FASSIO . See AIDMEN Affondamento Picci Fassio .

 

All the documents showing the matching exercise between Sonar Image and Vintage Picture/Drawing

have already been posted on this Forum , for all five wrecks .

Edited June 9, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

HMS URGE

 

THE SONAR IMAGE OF THE WRECK AT MARSA EL HILAL , LIBYA .

THE APERTURE SEEN ON THE SIDE OF THE CASING.

On a sonar image the "return" from a metal structure is coloured (there is a choice of colours)

When there is no metal there is no "return" : the corresponding area is uncoloured or dark .

On the sonar image of HMS URGE the rather large and oblong Aperture on the side of the Casing

(between the Gun Platform and the front edege of the Fin) appears as a dark area (hole) ...

except for the bottom part of this dark area which looks bright.

This is due to the "return" of the sonar wave having hit a narrow area of metal : the THICKNESS

of the Casing.

The Casing is an additional Deck affixed to the cylindrical-shaped Pressure Hull which is the main

body of a submarine . Walking , working , manning the Gun on the Pressure Hull would not be

possible without a flat Deck : the Casing.

The Casing is made of a thinner steel than the Pressure Hull. 

Though small , the thickness of the Casing shows up on the sonar image , where the Aperture is located.

The attached vintage picture is of HMS UNITED , of the same "U" Class as HMS URGE : the Aperture in

the side of the Casing is seen between the Gun and the Fin.

This Aperture exists on both sides of the submarines U Class (see earlier Post #51)

The Aperture is identifiable on the sonar image of the submarine at Marsa el Hilal  :

 

This is the unchallengeable  evidence the wreck is that of HMS URGE.

 

Google       AIDMEN URGE ARGONAUTA U-205

Google       AIDMEN MARSA EL HILAL I RELITTI

Italian magazine  STORIA MILITARE , issue April 2016

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

Posted on :

 

Re : the sketch on Post #54

 

The closeup picture showing the rather large metal area (the flare) all around the inside of the two large

side openings on the side of the Casings  (British U Class submarines)  has been most useful to explain the

"return" from that place when hit by the sonar wave.

There would have been no bright trace on the image had it not been for that flare (the thickness of the 

metal sheets used to build the Casing being too small to produce such a visible echo).

Edited June 13, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

 

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

Found on : http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17655

 

To CBM: Amen! I concur entirely with your views.

Unfortunately for Mr Misson the Naval Historical Branch at the Ministry of Defence has rejected his "evidence" last April as there is no chance that HMS Urge was at Ras Hilal on 29 April 1942. I have not seen a single sonar expert endorsing his interpretation of the photos. Repeating endlessly his arguments with the same photos will not make them right.

As I posted earlier (see post#2), the sonar photo is probably that of U-205 known to have been lost at Ras Hilal. 

The authors of the article in Storia Militare have not cited a single British archive document to support their hypothesis preferring to rely on imagining the possibility of ULTRA documents ordering HMS Urge to go to Ras Hilal when none exist. I find it amusing that people will launch theories on the demise of a famous submarine without checking a single record of her operational history. With imagination one can spin a lot of interesting stories but History it is not.

Platon Alexiades

Unquote

 

A comprehensive comment on this matter is being prepared.JPM.

Edited June 13, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

My answer to  Post #26  by Platon Alexiades , in :

 

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10151850#post10151850

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Repeating endlessly" that HMS URGE could not have been at Marsa el Hilal the morning of April 29,1942 will not make your statement "right" , either...
I owe nothing to anyone . Had I sought endorsement of my claim by someone I would have done so with a registered letter.I do not recall doing that...
I informed BRIDGEND Council as I got to understand THEY paid for the construction of HMS URGE . What happened next is not too important to me : I just put the sonar image on the table for the Families to know where the submariners are to be found when Libya will no longer be Out of Bounds.
Period.
The sonar image is not of U-205 because this German submarine is some 700 m away from the area sonar-searched in 2012 as shown on the attached Google Earth picture . There is no way the Tritech sonar model Starfish 450 would have detected something that far !
Besides , the sonar image shows the short after Casing of a British U Class : (it does not show the entire hull) ...a type VIIC would have shown a considerably longer body. 

As for the article in the Italian publication STORIA MILITARE we shall arrange for a translation in English and Readers will value its content by themselves.
However "I find it amusing" to see how the Italian point of view is so contemptuously dismissed ...
Whether you like it or not , the loss of HMS URGE was subsequent to an attack by their planes in their waters and under the eyes of some of their German allies.
Any good reason why anyone would expect to find anything on this event at Kew ?

Attached Thumbnails

Edited June 13, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

Addendum to Post #54 :

The revised sketch outlining the FLARE around the "Mooring Pipe"

As shown on all vintage pictures of British U Class submarines , there were two such "Mooring Pipe" on the side of the Casing , Port and Starboard .

It is the appreciable width of the Flaring which caused the "return" of the sonar wave to show up on the sonar image.

The sonar image shows that the Mooring Pipe on the wreck is exactly where vintage pictures show it is , on U Class boats (Posts # 51 , #54).

This is the unquestionable evidence the wreck is of a Class U British submarine ...therefore of HMS URGE as documented in the article of  STORIA MILITARE , April 2016 issue.

Edited June 13, 2016 by JPMISSON

[JPMISSON]

Una mail appena mandata al capo del reparto della Royal Navy che si occupa dei relitti di navi

"perse in azione".

Allegate le otto pagine dell'articolo Storia Militare (g.c.   D. Gatti   e   F. De Domenico) 

 

N. Kelsall

 

Navy Cmd

3rd Sector TL

Policy Secretariat

Whale Island

Portsmouth PO2 8BY

 

To the kind attention of Mr N. Kelsall

 

The eight page article published in April this year , in the Italian magazine STORIA MILITARE .

 

For the Italian archive documents about what happened to HMS  URGE  , at Marsa el Hilal ,

on April 29 , 1942 , see :

 

http://www.aidmen.it/topic/91-sommergibili-u-205-urge-argonauta-2%C2%B0/

 

and

 

http://www.aidmen.it/topic/213-marsa-el-hilal-i-relitti/

 

The true fate of HMS URGE  has been revealed by a sonar recording , Marsa el Hilal , in 2012 .

History is not only found in Archives .

More examples are to come .

It is about time sonar imagery is considered a valid tool , providing valid evidence .

The aperture (the Mooring Pipe) seen on the side of the casing of the wreck of HMS URGE  is

just an example of how revealing a sonar image can be .

 

 

Edited June 17, 2016 by JPMISSON