MARSA EL HILAL, i Relitti.

[Corto Maltese]

Riceviamo da Jean Pierre:

 

"At last, some (apparently recent) sensible words found at: http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/5629.html . The sonar picture 2012, published on Wreck.eu: http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?15977 in April this year, is ample evidence the Italian submarine  ARGONAUTA 2° lies in Marsa el Hilal and nowhere else! A comprehensive dossier on the subject is being prepared. Hopefully, this will put an end to all interrogations, assumptions, suppositions or speculations.

 

Jean Pierre Misson, Tabarka, Tunisia. August 28, 2015".

 

Attachments:

 

 

 

Crediti immagine sommergibile Argonauta: http://www.xmasgrupsom.com/Sommergibili/argonautaIIguerra.html

[Giuseppe Garufi]

Se posso integrare l'immagine pubblicata da Corto Maltese, questa deve essere stata scattata qualche attimo prima della precedente.

Una nota, l'ARGONAUTA sta uscendo dal porto di Messina.

 

 

La foto arriva da una pubblicazione dell'USMM: I Sommergibili Italiani, Roma 1963.

[Corto Maltese]

Abbiamo ricevuto un nuovo aggiornamento da Jean Pierre:

 

 

"As already announced in April this year, the Italian submarine RM ARGONAUTA 2° has been identified from a sonar recording conducted in 2012 in Marsa el Hilal, Libya: http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?15977 . There are no GPS coordinates but the P.A. is indicated on the attached Google Earth picture. The correlation between the sonar image and the drawings of RM Argonauta 2° is only a preliminary exercise. The wreck seems to be slightly listed and the Bows are in deeper waters than the Stern. Hence the distortion in the image. There is no visible damage to the structure. The drawings found in Storia Militare N°11 , 2013 , are said to come from Gruppo Cultura Navale. A Final correlation is being prepared. The situation in the area of Ras el Hilal is not yet sufficiently safe to contemplate any diving there, in the immediate future. However, the information has been forwarded to a professional libyan diver so that we may, hopefully, get photographic and video documentation as soon as the conditions will allow secure operations. Jean Pierre Misson - Tabarka, Tunisia. September 3, 2015".

 

Attachments:

 

ARGONAUTA Preliminary  Correlation:

 

 

 

Approximate position of the wreck:

 

 

 

 

 

[Corto Maltese]

"Sonar Image, Marsa el Hilal  2012:

 

 

 

Pictures:

 

 

 

Drawings:

 

 

The submarine was lost after June 27 (probably on 28/29), 1940. She lies on the bottom of Marsa el Hilal, Libya. No apparent damage to the structure (no direct hit). Depth circa  40 m, deeper at Bows. P.A.  32°  54'  N  22°  11'  E (i secondi sono stati volontariamente rimossi n.d.r.).

 

 

http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?15977

 

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonauta_(sommergibile_1932)

 

http://www.aidmen.it/topic/91-sommergibili-u-205-urge-argonauta-2%C2%B0/

 

https://books.google.be/books?id=hDCzAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=coastal+command+argonauta&source=bl&ots=-94LlzVt5U&sig=rHvpC6VpCN93cYfX1mjDS-dAfQk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBGoVChMI2qXt-rPdxwIVgaEUCh0BRADd#v=onepage&q=coastal%20command%20argonauta&f=false

 

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_short_sunderland_service.html

 

Jean Pierre Misson - Tabarka, Tunisia. September 4, 2015".

 

[Corto Maltese]

Addenda:

 

"Many reports mention an attack on Italian submarine  RM ARGONAUTA 2° on June 29, 1940.
 
UBoat.Net: 29 Jun 1940

 

On 29 June 1940 around 0615 hours the Italian submarine Argonauta (offsite link) was probably sunk near Cape Ras el Hilal, Libya in position 35° 16' N, 20° 20' E by the British destroyers HMS Dainty (Cdr. M.S. Thomas, RN), HMS Decoy (Cdr. E.G. McGregor, RN), HMS Defender (Lt.Cdr. St.J.R.J. Tyrwhitt, RN), HMS Ilex (Lt.Cdr. P.L. Saumarez, DSC, RN) and the Australian destroyer HMAS Voyager (Lt.Cdr. J.C. Morrow, RAN). It is also possible the Argonauta was depth charged and sunk around 1450hours that same day by Sunderland L5804 (R.A.F.) in position 37° 29' N, 19° 51' E.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
 
http://www.xmasgrupsom.com/Sommergibili/argonautaIIguerra.html
______________________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.aidmen.it/topic/91-sommergibili-u-205-urge-argonauta-2%C2%B0/
___________________________________________________________________________
 
This cannot possibly be true if the sinking of the submarine occurred on June 28 as a result of an attack (2ea. 250 lb anti submarine bombs) by a Sunderland plane, RAF Squadron 230. See page 185-186  COASTAL COMMAND, John Campbell, 2014.
 
https://books.google.be/books?id=1wEFBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT177&lpg=PT177&dq=coastal+command+argonauta&source=bl&ots=DFhRrtODfE&sig=Hxrv9GYaLse2i-wBkLZeRL-b558&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDEQ6AEwA2oVChMIhqmv56DexwIVQ8AUCh04KQOz#v=onepage&q=coastal%
20command%20argonauta&f=false
________________________________________________________________________________________
 
The claim of the RAF is correct because the wreck of Argonauta 2° is to be found at Marsa el Hilal and therefore... she could not have been elsewhere...a day after!
 
Hence, all the claims of the Royal Navy (and of other RAF units for that matter) of having sunk Argonauta 2° on June 29 th and much further North than Ras el Hilal, are unvalid. The wreck of Argonauta 2° is confirmed: MARSA EL HILAL, P.A.:  32° 54' N  22° 11' E (i secondo sono stati volontariamente omessi n.d.r.). The attached sonar image is the wreck of  Argonauta 2°, Marsa el Hilal, 2012. Jean Pierre Misson - Tabarka, Tunisia. September 5, 2015".

[Corto Maltese]

"A correlation exercise to match the Drawings to the Sonar Image of a submarine. Naval Stories and Naval History can, sometimes, be found elsewhere than in dusty Archives. For ARGONAUTA 2° her true fate has been found on the bottom of the sea, at Marsa el Hilal. Everything that has been written or said about her being somewhere at a Latitude greater than 32° 54' N ... must be erased and forgotten. Jean Pierre Misson - Tabarka, Tunisia. September 5, 2015".

 

Attachments:

 

Argonauta Sonar w depth profile:

 

 

 

Argonauta preliminary correlation:

 

 

 

Argonauta central section:

 

 

 

Argonauta correlation drawings-image:

 

 

 

Marsa el Hilal - The stage:

 

[Corto Maltese]

"This is to confirm that, to date, four submarines are known to be lying at the bottom of the bay MARSA EL HILAL, Libya (PIC. #1 , PIC.#2). Three of the wrecks have been identified from the recording of a sonar search conducted
there, in August 2012. One out of the four wrecks is not on the recording but is known to be there from a RN Report

found at National Archives, Kew: "Capture and Subsequent Loss of U-205" (Courtesy P. Alexiades). With the bearings mentioned in this Report (for the position of the U-205 after she sank), the position of the wreck has been plotted on a Google Earth satellite picture (PIC. #3). The other three wrecks are located in the zone sonar-searched in 2012 (PIC. #4). These are:

• PIC.# 5 & 6: HMS URGE British U Class
• PIC.# 7 & 8: ARGONAUTA Italian Classe 600
• PIC.# 9: UNIDENTIFIED Submarine (seemingly Italian, Classe 600)

The bay is far from having been entirely sonar-searched . Therefore, apart from other shipwrecks showing on the sonar recording 2012, there could be more submarines lying at the bottom of this bay, known to have been a Submarine Cove since the early 1900's. Jean Pierre Misson - Tabarka, Tunisia. September 5, 2015".

 

Attachments:

 

 

PIC. #1 and PIC.#2:

 

 

 

PIC. #3:

 

 

 

PIC. #4:

 

 

 

PIC.# 5 & 6:

 

 

 

PIC.# 7 & 8:

 

 

 

PIC.# 9:

 

[Corto Maltese]

Pare che a Marsa El Hilal Jean Pierre non abbia trovato solo relitti di unità navali:

 

 

"Pic.#1: A Tank, standing in a "normal" position. The gun is pointing left and slightly up.

 

 

Pic#2 Lorry: top left. Heading left. No heavy load. Tanker: centre (apparently only a Trailer)

 

 

All this war equipment must have been sitting on the deck of a Landing Craft (MZ or MFP)  because the contours of the vessel have not yet been identified. Jean Pierre Misson, Tabarka 7.09.2015".

 

 

 

[JPMISSON]

The latest correlation (from Conning Tower to Stern) between the sonar image and the original drawing

for Italian submarine Classe 600 , Serie "Argonauta".

There is no other candidate for being at Marsa el Hilal , than ARGONAUTA 2° 

http://www.aidmen.it/topic/91-sommergibili-u-205-urge-argonauta-2%C2%B0/

Edited May 7, 2016 by JPMISSON

[Platon Alexiades]

Before jumping to conclusions: I would note that the uboat.net article (http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/5629.html) on HMS Decoy and the loss Argonauta has not endorsed the theory that this submarine was lost at Ras Hilal as claimed in the initial message.

 

If you just look at the map the position 35°16'N, 20°20'E is 170 miles off Ras Hilal. So "near Ras Hilal" should not be taken too literally and the submarine was not sunk by Decoy in the Bay of Ras Hilal.

 

However, it is quite possible that Decoy did not sink Argonauta and her loss was due to other causes. Although it is not impossible that Argonauta was lost through an accident at Ras Hilal, it is unlikely. Entering this bay submerged without announcing herself, she would have risked to be taken for enemy. If she entered the bay on the surface, she would have communicated with the shore establishment and there is no record of that. It is more likely that she passed a few miles north of Ras Hilal. There is no possibility that a second Italian submarine was lost at Ras Hilal. Can you suggest one? Perhaps a submarine from 1914-1918?

 

I apologize for this dissonant view.

[JPMISSON]

Quoting the Post , 12 May AIDMEN - URGE) :

"I find I waste too much time refuting your theories when I have more serious work to do".

 

Unquote

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have not wasted too much of my time arguing on the Forum : I have spent most of the past 12 months

studying Drawings and vintage Pictures : the TECHNICAL side of the dossier...not TEXTS found in Archives.  

When "I"  do not master a subject : "I"  keep quiet or  "I"  shut up altogether , but of course : not in this case . 

 

So this is my answer to this earlier Post , May 12  :

 

The sonar image that I have labelled  "Argonauta 2°"  is  (by progressive findings) :

 

A Submarine

An Italian submarine Classe 600 , from correlations with Drawings and vintage Pictures .

                                                                (There was no Classe 600 at the time of WWI) 

By (candid ?) deduction : ARGONAUTA 2°  

 

I find it strange that none of the "historians" who dismiss the validity of sonar images , never thought of getting

outside support to help them understand this technique : there would be no dishonour in doing so : even very

competent general practitioners call on  "specialists"  when need arise  !

 

We should all aim at finding the truth about the lost ships and submarines .

So far I have found very little support in my endeavour .....

However , even single-handed , I will come back on the Forum with news about the many wrecks off Tabarka 

and believe you me : there will be astounding revelations  !

 

I only bring sonar images to the table (with comments at times) .

I offer no explanations as to why and how the vessels ended up where they are found (by Sonar/GPS)  .

This is not my job and I should not be asked to say why my findings contradict the Archives  ! 

Edited May 15, 2016 by JPMISSON

[Platon Alexiades]

You may be taken more seriously if you do not make wild claims.

Good luck at Tabarka.

[JPMISSON]

It would appear my (wild) claims are causing nightmares to some .....?

This was just an appetizer : brace yourselves for more .

 

We shall very soon see who is constructive of History and who are only copiers of  Archives .

Do not worry too much about Notoriety : if I ever get some it will have been well-earned because I will have

got it single handed and with no reference to anyone or anything  !

 

[Platon Alexiades]

I am bracing myself for the discovery of TITANIC at Tabarka...

[JPMISSON]

You ought to know that submarine wrecks (more than often) are the tombs of their entire crews.

Jokes on this matter are simply inappropriate.