piroscafo ASTI

[Aris]

The Greek steamship MELETIOS VENETZIANOS (307 grt, built 1912 as RIO JAMARY for service in the Amazon river) was detained by Vichy France in Marseilles (probably in June 1940) and subsequently seized. In December 1942 she was handed over to Germany designated as "HELLAS 11" and in February 1943 he was transferred to Italy - still in Marseilles.

At http://www.prevato.it/giornalenautico/40.php, Franco Prevato mentions that she was taken to Genoa in June 1943 and was seized there by the Germans in September 1943. He then adds "(n.d.a.) Si presume che l'ASTI sia stata portata ad affondare in prossimità delle bocche di porto." Still, the photo in the same webpage is most surely not ASTI.

 

However in the Piraeus Register files, it is mentioned that MELETIOS VENETSANOS (correct Greek spelling) was sunk by war action in November 1943 in the strait of Carpathos - Rodos.

Does anyone have any information that could lead to one of the two options?

 

Some additional information can be found at:

https://forum.nautilia.gr/showthread.php?184377-%D3%DF%E1-Asti-Meletios-Venetzanos-Sia-Rio-Jamary&highlight=MELETIOS

[Francesco De Domenico]

The book by our friend Pasquale B. Trizio from Bari "Adriatica. Venezia 1932-2004", Gelsorosso, Bari, 2008, has more or less the same info as Prevato:

"ASTI. Requisitioned by the Italian authorities in Marseilles harbour  and delivered to Adriatica on 20 Febr. 1943. She remained moored in the Genoa harbour until  8 Sept., when she was taken over by the German armed forces. Probably scuttled outside that same harbour."

 

The designation HELLAS 11 is a codename applied as the ship was contemplated in the Nevers Agreement of August 1942 between Vichy France and Germany, not an actual ship name. All the    former Norwegian, Danish, Dutch, Greek and Yugoslav  merchant ships listed in that agreement for delivery from Vichy to Germany had a codename appended to them.

 

P.S. If she was taken from Marseilles to Genoa on 20/22 June 1943 as stated by Prevato, it seems rather unlikely that she was later able to reach the Aegean Sea (as you know, passage through the Straits of Messina was barred to Axis ships from 17 Aug. 1943).

[Loligo]

Aris, M.V. as ASTI is not reported in Navi Mercantili Perdute nor is in Schmelzkopf's "Fremde Schiffe in deutscher Hand,! because of low tonnage.

However we have documents of a ship named ASTI showing her passage into the Italian Govermnent at Marseilles for being managed by Adriatica S.A. di Navigazione on 20 february 1943

and left Marseille for Genova either on 22 february 1943 or 20 june 1943. Subsequently we don't have any trace sure anymore.

If the Piraeus file is correct we should admit that she was transferred to Greece in summer 1943 (this seems rather difficult at time) or that the whole Marseille story is false.

Or there was a second ASTI about which we ignore everything???   In every case the photo shown in Provato photo gallery is very very uncertain as in that  gallery there is a lot of ships misidentified.

No photos found in Greece  or a search in some Brazilian site, just to see how the ship looked ????

[Aris]

Thank you both for your replies. I agree that it would be difficult for such a small vessel (and idle for two years) to reach Greece in such a small time frame. The Piraeus Registers refers to ASTI (ex MELETIOS VENETSANOS) and it must be wrong regarding her fate.

 

I can't also justify why this tiny vessel was in Marseilles in 1940. I suspect that she might have engaged in some illegal traffic either with Jewish immigrants or with the Spanish civil war.

 

There are some photos of her at the Brazilian website http://arch.coc.fiocruz.br/index.php/eyeqvTry searching "Rio Jamary" and "Rio Jamari" and you will find them.

[Loligo]

dear Aris, I had a look to the brazilian photo of RIO JAMARY: I wonder, unless a total rebuilding, how such a ship could have reached Greece and Marseille in 1940 and subsequently having been taken over by Germans for commercial duties in Gulf of Genova. More possible she arrived in Greece in the thirties for local service and therefore the Piraeus list may be correct also about the sinking. But then the Marseille M.VENETZANOS/ASTI is somewhat else.  We have a long way to run before reaching the truth.....

[Domenico C.]

The steamer ASTI left Marseilles on 25 June 1943 at 13.00, escorted by UJ 6070 and UJ 6071, and arrived to Toulon at 20.40 on the same day.

 

The transfer to Genova, if any, should be obviously after this date.

 

However, I was unable to find further movements of this ship. Also it seems that the ship was in bad conditions; according to a Kriegsmarine's report about the ships at Marseilles : "Auf die Dampfer MAID OF SAMOS und MELETIOS VENETZIANOS wird in Anbetracht ihres schlechten Zustandes verzichtet."

 

So I cannot confirm if, or when, ASTI actually reached Genova, as stated in the sources mentioned in the previous posts. Anyway we can exclude that ASTI was in the Aegean in the Autumn 1943.

 

Domenico C. 

[Francesco De Domenico]

According to the Dimitris Galon database on Greek shipping losses in WWII in Historisches Marine Archiv (HMA), RIO JAMARY, built in 1912 by Smith's Dock at Middlesbrough,  came under the Greek flag in 1920 as SIA, so the South Atlantic crossing from her original homeport Belem should have been about  that time. In 1926 she was renamed MELETIOS VENETZIANOS for  Patroklos and Achilleas Venetzianos, homeport Piraeus. Sunk in 1941 by war causes, raised (source: Ioannis Melissinos, "Die Marine im zweiten Weltkrieg. Der gesamte Beitrag der griechischen Handelsmarine (Motorsegler und Dampfer) 1940-1945", Univ. Ioannina, 1995). On 20.2.1943 delivered to Italy at Marseilles and renamed ASTI. To Genoa under escort and in ballast on 20/22 June 1943, in German hands 9 Sept. 1943, perhaps scuttled near the harbour in 1945 (source archivio Franco Prevato).

[Francesco De Domenico]

By the way, MAID OF SAMOS, the other Greek ship mentioned in Domenico C.'s German document as not worthy of being taken over because of her state of disrepair, was an old cargo ship built in 1901 by Bremer Vulkan at Vegesack as BINGEN, 1,190 grt, in 1921 as a war prize she became the MAID OF SAMOS under the management of M. Embiricos (a London Greek group), came under the Greek flag in 1930 for D.& M.P. Goulandris of Andros, management by T.L. Boyazides & Co. She was interned at Marseilles in June 1940 and confiscated by Vichy France in April 1941 at the fall of Greece, but not renamed nor put into service by them. Taken up by Italy at the end of 1942 as PAVIA, but at 9 Sept.1943 she was still at Marseilles where she fell into German hands. Renamed CARMEN in 1944 for the Mittelmeer Reederei GmbH, sunk in Toulon by air attack on 12 March 1944; according to some sources raised but not repaired, scuttled as a blockship at Marseilles on 20 Aug. 1944. So this ship did not get very far from Marseilles, too.

[Aris]

@Loligo: There was only one MELETIOS VENETSIANOS at that time, and according to Piraeus Register this was renamed ASTI etc. It might seem impossible but this little riverine vessel actually came to Greece 1920 and sailed coastal waters as a passenger ferry. How she came to be in Marseilles in 1940 is a question.

 

According to the Dimitris Galon database on Greek shipping losses in WWII in Historisches Marine Archiv (HMA), RIO JAMARY, built in 1912 by Smith's Dock at Middlesbrough,  came under the Greek flag in 1920 as SIA, so the South Atlantic crossing from her original homeport Belem should have been about  that time. In 1926 she was renamed MELETIOS VENETZIANOS for  Patroklos and Achilleas Venetzianos, homeport Piraeus. Sunk in 1941 by war causes, raised (source: Ioannis Melissinos, "Die Marine im zweiten Weltkrieg. Der gesamte Beitrag der griechischen Handelsmarine (Motorsegler und Dampfer) 1940-1945", Univ. Ioannina, 1995).

 

The information given by I. Melissinos on his book is actually including all ships lost and captured by the Germans, so the interpretation suggested by marinearchiv as "Sunk in 1941 by war causes, raised" is actually wrong.

I agree that it is most unlikely that the ship ever left Genoa and I assume that she was probably never refitted.

[Domenico C.]

Allego un estratto dei documenti che citavo, dal quale risulta che il 25.6.1943 l'ASTI era ancora a Tolone (e quindi il trasferimento a Genova deve essere avvenuto in una data diversa e successiva da quella indicata nel sito di Prevato).

 

Ricordo, da una precedente discussione, che qualcuno dei soci disponeva dell'elenco dei relitti ritrovati a Genova alla fine della guerra; sarebbe interessante sapere se la nave vi è, o meno, citata.

 

Domenico C. 

 

 

[Domenico C.]

Riprovo a inviare l'allegato:

 

 

[Domenico C.]

 

 

Riprovo a inviare l'allegato:

 

 

[Domenico C.]

Mi sembra di avere qualche problema con gli allegati. Scusate. 

[Domenico C.]

Mi sembra di avere qualche problema con gli allegati. Scusate.