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TABARKA, i Relitti.

Iniziato da Francesco De Domenico , 29.07.2015 - 09:51
Tabarka Relitti Sommergibili Unità di Superficie Campo Minato Schnellboot Flotilla

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#31

Long John Silver
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Inoltro dal nostro socio JP Misson:

 

TABARKA Position of 4 Italian Submarines

 

For information only.

From sonar recordings , 2014 - 2015 , off Tabarka , Tunisia:

The position of four submarines  (confirmed Italian from their sonar image). There is a total count of eight submarines in the area , as at  9 October  2015. Other than the 4 Italian : Two presumed British . Two of undetermined nationality.

 

  1. Wreck 2G  Position   37°  04'  45"  N                8°  52'  35"  E
  2. Wreck 4B'  Position   37°  04'  41"  N                8°  52'  31"  E
  3. Wreck 4M' Position   37°  04'  47"  N                8°  52'  35"  E
  4. Wreck 5P  Position   37°  04'  46"  N                8°  52'  36"  E

 

 

 

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  • Inviato 12 ottobre 2015 - 08:14

#32

JPMISSON
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TABARKA : Questions about the date Naval Mines were there 

 

post-3-0-42426700-1443563481_thumb.jpg

 

 

Five sonar search sessions have been conducted , off Tabarka , between September 2014 and October 2015.

 

The total quantity of sonar targets (surface vessels and submarines) has not yet been precisely counted but exceeds the figure of 40.

Since most of the sonar images show important damage to the Bows , it is assumed that the sinkings are due to the vessels falling foul to naval mines.

Data found in Archives and Books would indicate that two naval minefields were planted in the Tabarka area by a Schnellboot Flotilla based in Bizerte . Mine-laying operations are said to have lasted from December 1942 through May 1943.

However , when the final identity (name) of the submarines will be known (2016 at the earliest) we shall be in a position to say whether or not mines must have been there prior to December 16 ,1942  when the German S Flotilla is said to have started the mine-laying operations..  

For instance :  If the Italian submarines PORFIDO or DESSIE' (both lost in the Bone area , near Tabarka , prior to December 16 ,1942) are found in the area Pic. 1 and with damage clearly caused by the explosion of a mine... this would mean there were naval mines there , even before those planted by the S. Flotilla operating out of Bizerte from December 16 onwards.

 

The same reasoning applies to the Italian submarines  ZAFFIRO , CORALLO ,  ADUA , DAGABUR , LAFOLE' , UARSCIEK , COBALTO and GRANITO  all lost in Western Mediterranean , prior to that date.

...and , of course ,  to the other 4 submarines (non-Italian) that have been similarly sonar-located in the area.  

 

Finding the names of all  8  submarines resting on the seafloor in this area is therefore of utmost importance.

Finding the nature of the damage and its cause will be relatively simpler.

At a depth beyond the 70 m level , the task is technically difficult and will require a fair amount of time to achieve in its totality.


Messaggio modificato da JPMISSON, 12 ottobre 2015 - 12:53

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#33

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Allega File  MARINE ANCHORS.jpg   116,47K   0 Numero di downloads

 

Complement to the Post about Wreck 5P , with Pic.1 and  3 : the sonar images of the Port Bow , showing the Anchor.

Here are a few of the standard Stockless Anchors used on Submarines.

Being on the Port side indicates this is an Italian submarine (Classe 600).


Messaggio modificato da JPMISSON, 13 ottobre 2015 - 10:45

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#34

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Complement to earlier posts and sonar image of TABARKA Wreck P5

Vintage pictures showing the anchors of Submarines ADUA and DESSIE' .

Together with the domes seen on the After deck of the wreck , an anchor on the Port side is evidence that this is an

Italian submarine , Classe 600.


Messaggio modificato da JPMISSON, 13 ottobre 2015 - 11:10

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  • Inviato 13 ottobre 2015 - 11:08

#35

Francesco De Domenico
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Nella mia veste di rappresentante di Misson in Italia, due foto che lui non riesce a postare.

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#36

sandokan
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Astonishing report!!

Thank you so much! wow


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#37

Francesco De Domenico
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Ricevo da Jean-Pierre Misson.


For information only.

Possible identity of the Submarine WRECK 4B' (Pic. #1) , sonar-located off Tabarka , Sept. 2015.

The study of this sonar image and a comparison with vintage pictures and drawings of Italian
submarines "Classe 600" show that the WRECK 4B' would be of the "Serie Acciaio".

This is mainly due to the prominence and position of the domes on the rear deck (Pic.#1 , #2)

The submarines of this "Serie" , operating in the area , were (Storia Militare N°11 , page 55) :

ASTERIA Lost 17.2.1943 off Bougie (today's BEJAIA) Algeria Pic. #3

AVORIO Lost 9.2.1943 off Bougie (today's BEJAIA) Algeria PIc. #4

COBALTO Lost 12.8.1942 off Bizerte Tunisia Pic. #5

PORFIDO Lost 6.12.1942 off Bone (today's ANNABA) Algeria Pic. #6

It is worth remembering that a submarine's "raison d'être" is to navigate underwater !
Contrary to a surface vessel that sinks straight down to the seafloor , a submarine (when not
fatally hurt or damaged) is often still capable of an escape to seek refuge in some distant place.

After suffering some damage off Bougie or Bone , Italian submarines would have tried to reach
the nearest place under Italian control (until early May 1943) : Bizerte. Pic. #7.
Unfortunately , on their way to Bizerte , they fell foul of the minefield off Tabarka : this is where
about four of them have been sonar-located. Pic. #8.
The sonar searches in that area have revealed a total of about eight submarines :
Other than the four Italian units , two seem to be British U Class , two are yet of unknown origin.
The plan for 2016 is to dive some of the wrecks or get some Video Recordings with a Drop Camera.

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  • Inviato 26 ottobre 2015 - 10:44

#38

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TABARKA  The Wrecks Zone

 

Ad occhio e croce , sembrerebbe che (visto la posizione dei relitti finora localizzati con il sonar) ,

a Tabarka si trattasse di uno  SBARRAMENTO  MINATO  con una sola fila di mine (non di un 
Campo Minato con varie file parallele) .
Visto poi la grande quantità di relitti di sommergibili (7 o 8 , forse anche di più ?) si tratterebbe 
di uno Sbarramento  ANTISOMMERGIBILE .
 
Anche con (sembrerebbe) una sola fila di mine il risultato è stato eccezionale  !
Sarà prossimamente rivelata l'identità dei sommergibili che giacciono li' giù , dimenticati durante
tre quarti di secolo !

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Messaggio modificato da JPMISSON, 08 giugno 2016 - 19:27

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#39

Platon Alexiades
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The four Italian submarines at Tabarka are utter nonsense. Anyone who knows Italian submarine histories will tell you that.

 

Asteria: sunk by HMS Wheatland and HMS Easton in 37°14’ N, 04°27’ E (nearly 210 miles from Tabarka).

Avorio: sunk while being towed after an attack by HMCS Regina in 37°13' N, 06°41' E (about 100 miles from Tabarka).

Cobalto: sunk by HMS Pathfinder and Ithuriel in 37°41' N, 10°00' E (about 70 miles from Tabarka).

Porfido: sunk by HMS Tigris in 38°10' N, 08°35' E (about 70 miles from Tabarka).

 

If you have can supply proof that the above is wrong, please let me know. And if you believe these submarines drifted all these miles to sink on a non-existing minefield (the minefield at Tabarka was laid at the end of April 1943) then I am afraid you have some serious case of illusions. Get your facts straight and stop spreading false information.


Messaggio modificato da Platon Alexiades, 19 giugno 2016 - 14:34

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#40

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edit.gif quote.gif multiquote_off.gif
 
 

Messaggio modificato da JPMISSON, 26 giugno 2016 - 14:23

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#41

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SONAR WITH GPS  ,  INVALIDATING  ARCHIVE DOCUMENTS
 
I have noticed on several occasions that the POSITION of the wrecks that have been sonar-located
at Marsa el Hilal , Libya  and off Tabarka , Tunisia , differ considerably from the position given for
the foundering of the vessels in  Archives , Books and other Documents found on the Net.
 
This applies to the cases of  :
 
HMS URGE
PICCI FASSIO
ARGONAUTA
three of the wrecks found at Marsa el Hilal , 2012.   Attachment #1
 
and to :
 
HMS QUENTIN
S 35 
two of the many wrecks found off Tabarka , 2015.   Attachment #2 , #3
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MARSA EL HILAL , LIBYA
 
HMS URGE has been identified from the sonar image and some hint as to her presence at Marsa el Hilal , 
the morning of April 29 , 1942.
My Statement of Identification is dated April 2015.
An additional and unmistakable detail has emerged in May 2016 : this is the presence on the sonar
image of an aperture on the side of the casing , exactly where the so-named Mooring Pipe shows up
on the vintage pictures of all U Class units  !
This submarine did not hit a mine ... "somewhere off Malta"
HMS URGE is at Marsa el Hilal.
 
PICCI FASSIO  has been identified as resting on the seafloor at Marsa el Hilal and not in the position 
indicated in written documents . The tanker revealed by the sonar is what can be seen on vintage
pictures , particularly the picture courtesy Mr Spazzapan , showing the late version of this tanker
with portholes on the side of the structure.
Of paramount importance are the other four details seen on the sonar picture  :
-the deck shows the series of independent tanks with hatches (this is a Tanker)
-the bridge is at the fore end of the ship (as per vintage pictures)
-the hull is deformed on the starboard rear (torpedo attack from the air)
-the tanker rests on the bottom in two sections (gap of about 15 m) : this matches the records .
This tanker is only a few meters away from HMS URGE , at Marsa el Hilal.
 
ARGONAUTA  This wreck has easily been identified as a submarine from the long and slim structure
and from the Depth Profile on the sonar image.
Of determining importance is the position of the Hatch of the Conning Tower , on the Bridge on top
the Fin , aft .
This is a unique feature of the Italian  "Classe 600"  design.
German Type VIIC and British U Class submarines have this Hatch at the fore end of the Bridge.
A copy of the sonar recording has been submitted to SM Marina Nazionale , Rome , for analysis. 
I am confident ARGONAUTA will similarly be confirmed "resting on the seafloor , Marsa el Hilal"
 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TABARKA , TUNISIA
 
HMS QUENTIN . This destroyer has been sonar-located    37°  04'  44"    N       8°  52'  33"    E
The matching between the sonar image and the vintage pictures is perfect and complete except 
for the missing Bows section.
It is not yet known if the foundering is due to the damage from the air attack off  La Galite  island 
or from hitting one of the mines in that area (evidenced by many more wrecks in a very narrow corridor).
Attachment #3
Some recently found information indicates QUENTIN sank on December 3 , 1942.
In any case HMS QUENTIN is nowhere else than 10 nm from Tabarka , 3 nm from shore , in the area
indicated on the Google picture. Attachment #2.
 
S 35 . This Schnellboot has been easily identified by comparing the sonar image to vintage pictures.
The Website  :  http://s-boot.net/se...als 3sfltl.html  has now integrated the coordinates of the 
position of the wreck . Attachment #3
 
All the above and the accompanying sonar images , vintage pictures , drawings and sketches have been 
published on the AIDMEN Forum : 
 
This is only the beginning . More surprises will surface from the bottom of the sea after every one
of the many wrecks lying off Tabarka will have been identified and the revelations will certainly upset
those who pretend  "non c'è nessuna prova che le navi elencate da JPM siano finite vicino a Tabarca"
...that at Marsa el Hilal there is no HMS Urge , No Argonauta , no Picci Fassio...
....That all this is pure "imagination" and  "fantasy" !
 
 
Sonar evidence will be a bit of a snag for them from now on because it demonstrates that (at least
for the vessels listed above) the data found in Archives as to their final resting position is simply wrong
and therefore invalid .
 
Allega File  MARSA EL HILAL SONAR SEARCH 2012.jpg   77,2K   0 Numero di downloadsAllega File  TABARKA Wrecks Area.jpg   82,83K   0 Numero di downloadsAllega File  TABARKA Wrecks inclusive CARGO SHIP.jpg   32,9K   0 Numero di downloads

 


Messaggio modificato da JPMISSON, 28 giugno 2016 - 14:42

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#42

Platon Alexiades
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Very amusing your theories of wrecks drifting for long distances to end up in your sonar area. I suppose there is a strong magnet field in Tabarka?

You are deaf to arguments and believe only your "visions". Unfortunately for you I do not see many people sharing your views. They may have believed you in the beginning because we are unaccustomed to people fabricating stories but I think I have opened their eyes now.

You can keep on repeating your stories ad infinitum but sensible people will see through them.

I am sure this forum and others will keep on being inundated by your posts in your desperate attempts to gain acceptance. If I am silent for a while it is not because I accepted your views but I have more important work to do then rebutting fantasies. I have warned the public, my work is done.


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#43

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The Wreck of Schnellboot  S 35

 

The wreck of a Schnellboot , sonar-located off Tabarka in October 2014 , has been

identified as being that of  S 35 .
The basic identification to a Schnellboot has been done by comparing the sonar image
to constructional drawings and vintage pictures .
The identification to S 35 has further been completed from information found on the Net
and in various books accounting for the loss of this unit in the area  "West of Bizerte" .
 
The position of the wreck is now indicated in :   DIE SCHNELLBOOT-SEITE
 
 
On the Start Page , Main Menu , select :   "S-Boote"
 
On next page Select  :   "Kriegsmarine 
                                             1935-1945"
 
On next page , go to bottom of page and select  :   "S-Boots - 
                                                                                            Verluste"           (Losses)
 
On next page , go to bottom of page and select  :    "S-Boots - Wracks"           (Wrecks)
 
This page gives the GPS coordinates of the wreck S 35 and the correlation between the sonar
image and the drawings of  Schnellboot Type 30 .
The depth is circa 70 m .
See Post # 41 , #42 , in  :
Without diving this wreck the vessel has been identified from the sonar image and a correlation
to what is known of its last passage .

Same for HMS URGE , same for PICCI FASSIO , same for HMS QUENTIN , same for ARGONAUTA .Allega File  TABARKA WRECKs ZONE.jpg   89,86K   0 Numero di downloadsAllega File  TABARKA Nearest Italian Minefield.jpg   81,05K   0 Numero di downloadsAllega File  TABARKA Position of Main Wrecks.jpg   30,99K   0 Numero di downloadsAllega File  TABARKA Wrecks Area.jpg   82,83K   0 Numero di downloads


Messaggio modificato da JPMISSON, 12 luglio 2016 - 12:58

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#44

JPMISSON
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Very amusing your theories of wrecks drifting for long distances to end up in your sonar area. I suppose there is a strong magnet field in Tabarka?

You are deaf to arguments and believe only your "visions". Unfortunately for you I do not see many people sharing your views. They may have believed you in the beginning because we are unaccustomed to people fabricating stories but I think I have opened their eyes now.

You can keep on repeating your stories ad infinitum but sensible people will see through them.

I am sure this forum and others will keep on being inundated by your posts in your desperate attempts to gain acceptance. If I am silent for a while it is not because I accepted your views but I have more important work to do then rebutting fantasies. I have warned the public, my work is done.

RIRA BIEN QUI RIRA LE DERNIER....


Messaggio modificato da JPMISSON, 14 luglio 2016 - 11:33

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#45

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Meno male che c'è questo "Cavaliere Nero" per proteggere il Pubblico dalle fantasie e dell' immaginazione paurose che cerca di imponergli quel individuo    !

Non si preoccupi per loro , Cavaliere Nero : i Lettori di questo Forum non sono nati ieri ...possono giudicare da soli e sanno che un sommergibile non è una balena .

 

Le immagini sonar Le disturbano cosi' tanto  ?  

E' solo perchè non vede bene o è qualcosa di più grave  ?  

Per l'URGE ,  la PICCI FASSIO , il QUENTIN , il S 35  e prossimamente anche per l'ARGONAUTA  c'è poco da fare :

I dati degli archivi ed altri documenti non quadrano con la Realtà  !

La colpa non è mia ... è del sonar . Veda con quello  !

 

Bisogna adattarsi : lo ha detto chiaramente F. Mattesini quando scrisse proprio su questo Forum :

 

"l'Ammiraglio Fioravanzo mi disse un giorno : La Storia si fa per gradi e dobbiamo accettare , anche se non ci piacciono , novità e correzioni di errori"

 

Più chiaro di cosi'  ?


Messaggio modificato da JPMISSON, 14 luglio 2016 - 11:33

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